Friday, November 18, 2011

The Elephant in the Room

I hesitate to air these sorts of administrative concerns over the idea board, so rather than post my response in-game where everyone (especially impressionable newbies) can see it, I'll write it out here.

There were a couple of idea posts overnight that are oddly atypical of what we administrators hear from players.  In effect, they called for tightening up regulation of unmanned looping to get gold or level up... Imagine that.  Players asking for rules making it harder to get to 50 and get rich.  On the one hand, it pleases me to hear players starting to appreciate why this sort of gameplay is bad.  On the other hand though, I'm not pleased that we let the situation get to a point where players are starting to complain about it.

The years of admin experience we have means we can typically spot problematic behavior early on, and this is why we try to nip this sort of unfair play in the bud by coming down on people who start doing stuff like gold looping.  What's sparked this most recent bout of outrage was certain individuals quietly roboleveled for months during the summer.  There was little harm was being done, the admins were largely away on vacation, and nothing came of it.  Here we are a few months later, though, and now we've got players equipped with an army of indescript, throw-away, power-combo alts that have tons of money and all the perks that come with that (level 50 baking, crazy quest weapons, etc.).  These players have started leveraging their armies of alts, and now suddenly there's a problem.

Addressing these issues is quite tricky; in the past (which I have dubbed Dark Risings 1.0), dealing with isolated abuses were often compulsive and sweeping.  A great historic example of this is when the game's economy was redone and a lot of players lost all their gold because a few abusive players (I'll call them powerplayers) got crazy rich.  Here in Dark Risings 2.0, we've been trying to curtail these sweeping, reactionary changes in favor of more conservative responses that don't impact the entire game.  For example, one of our current powerplayers continued roboleveling despite being told many times to stop, so we made all mobs in all leveling areas aggressive towards just his character.  Permanently.

The downside to this approach is that it's extremely time consuming.  Once we impose such a punishment on an individual, there is a pretty predictable chain of events that follows:

  1. The player argues and complains with imms, then admins, then imps.  It's not fair, this isn't fair, life's not fair.
  2. A smear campaign is launched against the immortals over IMs for singling out and picking on one poor guy who was just trying to level his character.
  3. The player gets over his butthurt and just looks for another way to exploit the system.
  4. The player finds a way to exploit the system, and the cycle repeats.

This process is extremely aggravating and time-consuming for us admins, and this is why, despite our desire to limit fallout, we still sometimes introduce sweeping changes.  The case of rose bushes no longer being immune to squires was kind of a balance between the Dark Risings 1.0 approach and the 2.0 approach; initially, I was going to just remove their immunity to pierce altogether, but Sidonie (who has been really championing sensibility) suggested we limit the change to squires so that rose bushes can still be used for honest reasons elsewhere.

The situation in which we now find ourselves is at stage #3.  The truth is, there are other charmable mobs in the game that are immune to pierce; people just haven't discovered them.  As soon as they are found, I'd be willing to bet that our resident powerplayers will abuse the hell out of them, and we'll have to change them as well.  The ultimate question is, how do we break this cycle?  We could...

  1. levy some sort of punishment against the abusive character.  This won't work because powerplayers' characters are usually interchangeable and disposeable, and we don't have the effort to persecute every new character they pump out.
  2. make a sweeping or semi-sweeping change.  This is what we've been doing, but it sucks.  It's a lot harder for a casual player to get gold now, because all the "easy" ways had to be plugged up on account of powerplayers grossly abusing them.
  3. ban the powerplayer.  But for what?  Having the time and dedication to play the game hardcore and make juiced up characters?  That's not against the rules.
  4. make it a serious rule violation to robolevel/robofarm gold, then ban the powerplayer.

I think option #4 is the gist of what the recent idea posts advocate, but the truth is, this option sucks too.  If you think back to the time when afk spamming wasn't allowed, people were still doing it.  Even after we've told people that they aren't allowed to robolevel or robofarm gold, they are still doing it.  When we catch someone in the act, there's always an excuse.  My Chinese food just arrived.  I had to walk the dog.  I went out for a smoke.  My kitchen caught on fire.  And even then, we wouldn't be preventing the problem players from manually farming gold.  It wouldn't change the facts that they continually strip an area and prevent anyone else from using it, they hog charmies, and they really disrupt the gameplay for others.

So do we still ban them and embitter them against Dark Risings?  I'm not sure that's any more fair than saving powerplayers from themselves by plugging up exploits.  Both cases are just addressing the symptom, not the problem.

The underlying problem is that powerplayers, to a large degree, just don't "get" Dark Risings.  To them, Dark Risings is something for their sole enjoyment (not unlike a single player game), and they don't care about anyone else's fun.  They want the high score--the highest hp, the best PK record, and the highest hit/dam.  They want to get guilded and become a vampire because they want the best spells and the best equipment in the game.  RP is just a formality required to get those things.  In many cases, it's not that the player is mean-spirited or "bad," it's just that they don't understand the game that us admins are trying to make and that the majority of our players enjoy.

Dark Risings 1.0 was not a bad place to be for powerplayers; they were on staff, they were in guilds, they were everywhere.  And there's nothing wrong with that kind of MUD per se, but it's not the game that Dark Risings has become.  Us admins don't have the energy to run a game with the deep undercurrents of acrimony that those games can breed.  We want to run a game that's fun and fair to play.

So I guess the punchline here is that I don't know what to do about the bad apples who spoil the fun for others.  They tend not to listen to us staff because they don't "get" us, and since they don't understand what we're trying to accomplish with our game, they often assume that we're just out to get them.  Maybe they'll listen to what their peers (all you players) are saying instead.  Give it a try.  Just remember that you catch more flies with honey.

31 comments:

  1. Sintar here.

    Oh I know a novel solution Lets have otho give out passwords. to use his bank for depositing money. Player types deposit 1000 gold otho tells player password is third word in the following sentence. "Sacrifes for yochol are made in har'oloth." Now otho says if you wish to use the bank please tell me the password. So player tells otho yochol now they can deposit money for the next 12 irl minutes. Then otho tells player 13 minutes later password is 4th word in this sentence "sidonie is totally awesome." Now the player has to tell otho awesome." Player comes back 20 minutes later and tells otho password is awesome while roboleveling. Otho says that is not the password do you need the password.
    player moves away while roboleveling gold farming and comes back and tells otho awesome again otho warns player again no gold is deposited. player comes back a third time tries to use awesome well the script does. Now the player gets a message. Otho thinks your mind is not with you. YOu have been banned from using the bank for a period of 24 hours if this was an error you will need to speak with an immortal of rhia.

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  2. I agree that perhaps players don't "get" what sort of game you're wanting, but you're not doing yourself any favors in that sense either. For one, DR tends to encourage powerplaying for gold to some degree. Add a bit of gamer psychology and the fact DR is, in fact, a game and it falls into place.

    There is a need for gold, typically a lot of gold. Baking, in itself, doesn't require any base level to do, only a massively unreasonable amount of gold. Baking also has massive advantages in PK (Way, way too many, in my opinion. I should write an idea about that.). It's not any factor of RP or player skill or anything else, it's just a factor of how many times you can roll the "baking skill-up check" and, consequently, how fast you can farm the gold to do it. Quest equipment is really good and can be pretty expensive, and most people are going to want it (don't kid yourself, even if skilled PKers don't need it, they'll probably want it since it's an extra edge on the numbers game with, surprise, only gold as the cost). You want to help minimize powerplaying? Start making it unnecessary or even counterproductive to do so, since as long as baking exists as-is there'll be people who need to get hundreds of thousands of gold SOMEHOW.

    Secondly, people play games. In most single-player games, you are the star. It's not particularly fun or exciting in the long-term to RP a random nobody, which is basically where every character ever starts out as in DR. Maybe you're right in that they don't "get" it, but there's a fundamental desire that's not being addressed either, and the easiest way to become A Name is to get tuff. Funny how getting tuff usually requires a few million gold (including healer costs for all your training). As a bonus, it requires a character with no personality, not interesting at all to talk to, or even to talk to anybody else at all, so it fits perfectly.

    I don't think it's just the people running the loops that are the problem. They run them for more reasons than the dismissive "oh they're just min/maxer no-funs". I've never run one but I've been tempted due to the costs for stuff. Address the reasons and see what happens.

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  3. Anonymous #2:

    I appreciate much of what you say, and you're dead-on as far as people wanting to be a star. Dark Risings has always been a game where being a star either meant getting guilded, getting involved in a lot of RP, and investing a lot of time into one character... or getting to 50 ASAP and PKing someone who normally doesn't get PKed (a CR, a vampire, or something).

    You wrote is that "the easiest way to become A Name is to get tuff." The operative word there is EASY. Powerplayers want easy, not fair, not fun. "Easy" is why people character cross or get their pals to log in abandoned characters and pass 50k in gold to the powerplayer. Easy is why powerplayers think that level 50 baking is necessary; it's easier to win (or not lose) that way. Fairness takes a second place to easy only in that powerplayers are fair only to a degree where they won't get in trouble for being unfair. And fun is only had after the player becomes a star. Easy is the problem.

    You suggest making it unnecessary to powerplay, but I really see no way to do this other than give everyone a were or vamp, start everyone with everything at 100%, or make all equipment and items free at shops. That might float if Dark Risings were solely a PK mud, but it is not. In fact, the majority of our players do not actively PK. Anything we do to deter powerplaying needs to be tempered by this fact.

    Perhaps what's personally upsetting about this all is that I remember a time when spamming or baking (and therefore gold farming) wasn't at all the norm for PKers. The whole point of baking was to give players long-term goals to achieve beyond just getting to level 50. While the PKers pounded each other seconds after hitting level 50, the characters getting famous the "hard" way were slowly leveling up their baking and selling their pies and loaves to the PKers. It was a good system, but I guess that doesn't last forever. Once one person puts in the time to really get ahead, the bar is raised, and now everyone has to do it. Coincidentally, this is why Dark Risings does not have remort.

    So what do we do? If baking was meant to be a reward-over-time that has now been short-circuited by gold farming, should we make it so that you can't improve at baking by more than 5 levels every 300 hours of being logged? That would reinforce the original intent of baking, but would powerplayers then simply sit characters idle for a year before they started playing them? I would definitely not want to raise the bar to such a level where we have a game full of people just idling so they can get that extra edge.

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  4. tpb yuneo here,

    With the idea that baking/tailoring should be a long term thing that is associated with a social/rping side to Darkrisings, I'd like to suggest the following:

    Hows about making it so that from each official quest you participate in, the % you can reach in these skills rise. So, for example every quest you partake in, you can learn an extra 10% (or more, whatever works) of baking/tailoring. Each player would have a score of how many Imm-run quests they've taken part in.

    Hypothetically, you can learn up to 10% without doing any quests. With one quest, you can go to 20%. And so on.

    This won't stop goldfarming, but it will force Mr Powerplayer to take part in other aspects of the game before suddenly being a master baker/tailor. Similarly, posting accounts to the realm of important rp events or the like could also be awarded a skill cap increase.

    The quests will already be being run so hopefully adding this in wouldn't wildly increase imm workload when running quests.

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  5. Yes, banning the player would be a bit harsh. Could it possibly have the desired effect though if you were to simply delete the character after it was caught (let's say twice to be nice)? I would expect that eventually if they wanted to play a character badly enough that they would not risk having it deleted. And if they don't like that they can quit the game and I don't think DR would be losing anything.

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  6. Why are you discussing stuff that isn't that related to the problem exposed? Simply focus to a solution.

    Someone running a loop is well aware that ICly the character is mindless and won't answer to anything. The problem seems to be that some people don't feel compelled to breaking someone else's loop cause they feel there'll be a repercussion in the future. How about putting a rule that players running loops can't use anything that happens to them while looping as IC rp later?

    Treat an OOC problem with an OOC solution.

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  7. Anonymous #2 here.

    Firstly, I'd like to say that baking is an absolute massive asset that any person who PKs must seriously consider getting. Both for the potential kit it brings (you can create your own powerful pills all in one place, a few of which have ridiculous effects) and because other people, some powerplayers, some not, are also good at baking and will use it regardless of if you have it or not. Much like quest equipment, it's not necessary, but it's a "free" advantage that only takes tedious, largely unfun gold farming to get...or just run loops.

    I can't confirm it personally, but I suspect peach pie's sanctuary is undispellable. If it's true, then you'd be foolish to not bake.

    >>> So what do we do? If baking was meant to be a reward-over-time that has now been short-circuited by gold farming, should we make it so that you can't improve at baking by more than 5 levels every 300 hours of being logged? That would reinforce the original intent of baking, but would powerplayers then simply sit characters idle for a year before they started playing them? I would definitely not want to raise the bar to such a level where we have a game full of people just idling so they can get that extra edge.

    You realize with those numbers that to max baking, I'd need to be online for 15,000 hours, or 625 days, or a little under two years. Not not since character creation, time ONLINE. If anything, it'd give powerplayers even more of an (unfun) advantage towards "casuals", since I'm certainly not online enough to clock in my time for baking. I'm sorry to say that this is really not one of your better thoughts, but the rest of your paragraph suggests you know this as well.

    The concept of a "reward over time" puzzles me. Isn't DR supposed to be RP as much as it is PK? The idea of additional things to grind after 50 to get more "rewards" boggles me since it goes against the (largely desired) idea of roleplay to cause events and make things happen. In other words, I don't see the "reward" over "time" when it's more of a matter of How Much Gold Can I Get Today. Don't "reward" me over "time": reward me over time, when my character develops and begins to shape as a major player in Rhia.

    >>> How about putting a rule that players running loops can't use anything that happens to them while looping as IC rp later?

    Who would enforce this? How could you be sure they were looping? If they weren't looping and got abused, could they retaliate? How about I "not-loop" as an excuse to PK the guy who decides to annoy me? This is far from an "OOC problem" when it has IC consequences as well.

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  8. I am sensing that the exact nature of the problem isn't completely clear, so let me clear up one thing:

    Running unmanned loops for gold or experience is against the rules. Period. Nobody is doing it on Dark Risings. The problem now is that people have begun using highly automated but manned scripts, which toe the line between being against the rules and not against the rules. Whenever we move the line, power players will just adjust accordingly, all while regular players are suffering because their areas or charmies are constantly getting nerfed.

    Now to address some of Anonymous #2's remarks:

    The 300 hours thing was just a number I pulled out of my butt, but here's where I was coming from: Getting to max baking (level 50) means 3000 hours of play time. Judging by a previous post of mine, only five characters in existence would actually satisfy this: Sintar, Adi, Tiea, Ravindra, and Mellyrnna. However, these are all characters who got famous the "hard" way and are examples of who should be rewarded for their contributions to the game. But you're right, I was not really serious about that idea.

    The "reward over time" idea behind baking is actually the opposite of what you're suggesting though; the "grind" part was supposed to be just playing the game. As you put in a lot of time playing a character, ideally his RP is developing and shaping him as a major player like you said. A side effect of this is that money tends to pile up if you aren't blowing it all on PK. The idea behind baking was that it'd be really expensive to master, but it'd be a good use for extra gold that doesn't get spent at level 50.

    And in fact, that's how baking worked for quite a while, but those days are long gone thanks to the bar having been raised by powerplayers. So it looks like we have to nerf baking.

    I would love to reward true character development over time, but in practice, this is extremely difficult due to its subjectivity and the messes caused by egoes. I (and all other imms) hate hearing stuff like "why did X get a reward even though my rp is better? X must be pals with an imm, and they're all cheaters." Even though such accusations are usually a case of someone thinking his RP is way better than it is (again, powerplayers who don't "get it"), it really sucks to hear it over and over. These are the sorts of things that get admins wondering if it's really worth the frustration to run the game.

    Yuneo's idea is very intriguing to me because it rewards players for putting in time (i.e., they have to play enough to be around when there are quests), but it's objective in the sense that generally anyone can participate and win. It's difficult to exploit this too, since powerplayers can't just sit idle for hours to rack up "reward time." Better yet, since we've been trying to make all quests have some sort of RP value, even RP-lite powerplayers can't avoid getting tangled up in the event. Maybe they make a friend, maybe they make an enemy. Either one is better than spending that time robofarming squires.

    Oh, and we will be making peach pies dispellable in the next update.

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  9. I personally love baking giving that extra "niche" of something to do for existing 50's to try and get up. It also does provide some benefit for PKers, given the various effects of the pills, but I believe it is purely the sanctuary effect of peach pies that are causing the serious issues. Rather than nerfing peach pies, why not just remove them from the baking list, or change their effect to that of say...pinch?

    As far as AFKgoldlooping/AFKroboleveling...I have always been against the use of such things. That being said, I doubt we have the staff to dedicate to robo/loop monitoring.

    What about putting in a command for morts, to let them report players doing such things. ie..
    "report looping", and has to be used in the same room as that person. Let this command signal something so imms can check it out if able.

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  10. "report looping" was meant to be.."report -person- looping".

    stupid fixing crap

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  11. >>> Rather than nerfing peach pies, why not just remove them from the baking list, or change their effect to that of say...pinch?

    There's already a pinch, and I can't think of anything else peach pies could provide (perhaps a magic ward thing, if strawberries don't do that). Removing peach pies removes an awful lot of the point of baking currently (it and apples are the "awesome ones") and is a very heavy-handed approach to handling something that's broken.

    In my opinion, making peach pies provide a large, long-term boost to your maximum HP/Mana/Movements could make them a universally appealing buff that could be an interesting "pre-fight" choice for PvM and PvP.


    >>> That being said, I doubt we have the staff to dedicate to robo/loop monitoring. [...] Let this command signal something so imms can check it out if able.

    I'm just going to point out this contradiction and let you realize what you said.

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  12. [quote]">>> That being said, I doubt we have the staff to dedicate to robo/loop monitoring. [...] Let this command signal something so imms can check it out if able.

    I'm just going to point out this contradiction and let you realize what you said."[/quote]

    I find that its far from a contradiction. In my case, we have morts using the command to flag suspicious people of afkroboleveling/afkgoldlooping, rather than dedicate one or two staff members to finding these culprites and dealing with them.

    It would be a different way "approval" works. A mortal can "Flag" someone as afkrobo-ing, and any random available staff member can deal with it, like any random available staff member can "approve" a mortal.

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  13. Leveling and gold farming bot scripts and junk comes with the territory of playing a online multiplayer game with character progression. Leveling one character can be a time sink, leveling six? blegh. People will always find a way to level their characters with as little effort put in as possible lol. Thats the human nature, we want things easy.

    I don't think baking itself is a problem related to botting. Baking gives pkers an advantage so if they can get it, why not? Nerf baking and people would still goldfarm just for the gold since gold is a valuable resource when it comes to pking anyways.

    Honestly there is no one perfect solution to stop botting scripts. Putting a bunch of rules and regulations to deter botting would only hamper the regular player even more so. The DR community (players and staff alike) as a whole will have to step up to police this problem. A post like the one Parv put up helps by getting the issue out to the players, that this is a problem and is not acceptable by the staff. If you as a player feel that strongly against script botting then do something about it. Talk to your friends that bot, report people who are suspect of running a bot, and the staff can be like "Yo dawg! I suspect of you botting one mo' time, Imma autocurse you, send you to Clestus, and reset your levels yo!"

    I mean its either have the staff throw a million rules to deter botting which players will find some way to intervene anyways or just have people be chill and be like "Bottin' ain't cool, stay in school!"

    Yeah...this post was pretty lame and drawn out rofl.

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  14. I agree with NyanKam. Implement a way for players to be more active role in stopping this onslaught of afkrobo-ers. It will help the staff out by cutting half the process of "finding out who is doing it", and allows them to investigate whether or not its true, and then issue punishments as needed.

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  15. While we're at getting things changed over complains, how about the powerspells boost? teehee

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  16. I agree that roboleveling and autogold farming are two problems yes. Baking is a huge perk that does take massive amounts of time and dedication to achieve. I agree that peach pies could be changed to be an hp,mana,moves boost rather than an undispellable. How about since apple pies are a +125 hp heal why not make peach pies the mana equivalent? Heal mana at Kalane or any other healer is about 40 to 60 mana per heal. Why not make peach pies into a randomized 75-100 mana per heal pill? This would also give magic users more of an edge against the melee classes since varying ticks are going to be put back into effect.

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  17. Also, people don't like powerplayers from what I read but you have to remember that without the powerplayers you wouldn't have all the stories you tell of today. People like Senara, Oughan, DeGraz, Bastien, Kamille, and the list goes on. These people were the powerplayers of their day and now that DarkRisings has changed the powerplayers have changed too. The problem really lies in the fact that people are more into the roleplay aspect of DarkRisings than the playerkilling. The reason DarkRisings is nothing like it used to be is because that balance is gone. There used to be people causing trouble, vampires fighting, Crimson Rain being huge assholes (pardon the language), people reporting crimes, contracts actually being taken out and completed, Covenance actually showing up and fighting weres and vamps. It seems now and I think Rhazuk put it best in his idea a while back that DarkRisings has just become a "Big Chatroom" where people would rather talk about making things happen then actually getting off their butts and doing it. We need the patriarchs who were more cunning and had their minions do things more publicly. Look at when Lilith returned. Every time she shows up and is visible for more than 15 minutes the P-base jumps about 10 people. When there are things actually going on more people get interested and while as mortals it is our duty to make things happen it is also the job of the immortal staff to try and promote it. It seems like all immortals really do these days is hand out equipment and spells but are not overly active in their respective guilds. Vampires, the "special" characters that are supposed to be the heart and soul of roleplay promotion and even playerkilling promotion don't do anything. You have two patriarchs who log online for 30-40 minutes are are idle for 20 of those minutes. Their minions hide in secret for fear that they will be killed and lose their vampires. If you are good enough for the Admin and Imps to agree to give you a vampire you should be good enough to defend it. Take a chance, fight some covenance, cause some mischief, fight between broods.

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  18. I guarantee you that enough roleplay has gone on (and everyone knows who vampires are these days it's not really a secret) that if there was a war between broods people would take sides and there are those who would fight for one side or the other. This would be a start to bringing back that balance between roleplay and playerkilling that disappeared from the early days that everyone loved so much. I remember hearing stories about vampires put into vermillion jail where they summoned people in and started holding hostages or during weddings the groom kills the bride and starts slaughtering people in the wedding. These things are what made DarkRisings into what it is today. People always say, "Oh it's nothing like the old days, I remember X,Y and Z" but no one ever does anything to bring it back to that.


    Anyway after that ramble it was things like that and powerplayers who knew how to balance out roleplay and playerkilling that made darkrisings into the fabled one people talk about. The powerplayers today who try to do that receive nothing but opposition it seems from other players and the staff alike. If you really want DarkRisings to be how it used to be or to move forward and be better you have to be willing to accept those few people who play asshole characters or who enjoy fighting for pride and glory even the people who sit on their butt all day and just roleplay. Everyone is a powerplayer in their own way. Flocrian manipulates people to do pretty much anything, Eawu can talk so much you want to shove your head through a wall, Czyrik will bug the hell out of you until you fight him, Kaspell will make you respect him, Athkore has a really short temper and will tear you apart if you cross him. All of these people are the "powerplayers" you speak of but only a few are really considered powerplayers because they are the master bakers, the vampires, the werecreatures, the ones who have ungodly amounts of gold but do you know why these people have rose to become powerplayers? Because they put the time and dedication into doing so. They work hard not only from the fighting aspect as they are mostly great pkers but they are also the ones who put in the effort to roleplay also. The only opposition to them comes from we the players and you the staff on many occasions.

    So thats enough of this ramble let's see what other people think too

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  19. Sorry the above had to be three different postings I was only allowed a maximum of 4000 characters so I had to split it up.

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  20. The reason for roboleveling is having a werecreature shot. I know this idea was brought a thousand times but don't you think perhaps it would be nice if weres were given out by specific weres (I call them alphas)? Alphas bite the players with whatever reason they want and turn them in. After some reasonable time playing, the bitten player becomes an alpha and so on. I don't know, switching powerlevelling to a RP-based system seems like a good trade.
    There is the possibility of abuse but aren't weres already abused? Two out of three PKers are weres.

    I trust every baked thing should be dispellable. Maybe give them a longer duration for the drawback.
    About peach giving hp/mana/moves...fish stuff would be far better. They are pretty useless now.

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  21. Most recent anonymous (November 20, 2011 10:37 AM):

    I'm sorry, but it sounds like you're someone who doesn't "get it." What you said has nothing to do with the problem we're trying to address.

    1. You say Senara, Oughan, DeGraz, Bastien, and Kamille are "powerplayers of their day." They are not. TPB Senara was a notorious powerplayer who, like today's powerplayers, exploited many aspects of the game to get an edge, caused a lot of trouble, and was ultimately banned a few times. Sure, Senara beat up a lot of people, but what lasting RP was contributed by that character?

    The rest of the people you mentioned never looped gold or exploited the game to a gross degree like powerplayers do. They played fair.

    2. Imps don't choose vampires, and imps don't agree to give anyone vampires. I'm not sure where you're coming from.

    3. Vermillion putting people in jail and having criminals summon innocents in for execution sounds like a bag of lols, but that was exploiting a bug. The player who did that went on to cause all sorts of other trouble and was also banned (char cross, didn't stick to any particular role, and did anything to get an edge in the game). You aren't naming a whole lot of good role models here.

    4. "but only a few are really considered powerplayers because they are the master bakers, the vampires, the werecreatures, the ones who have ungodly amounts of gold but do you know why these people have rose to become powerplayers?"

    They got ungodly amounts of gold by exploiting the game. That is the problem. Those are the powerplayers to which I refer. You can widen the definition of "powerplayer" to include whoever you like, but that's not who we're discussing here.

    Please stay on topic.

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  22. In response to the most recent Anonymous (November 20, 2011 10:37 AM) - Lets tackle what you've said a bit at a time.

    >>"People like Senara, Oughan, DeGraz, Bastien, Kamille, and the list goes on. These people were the powerplayers of their day and now that DarkRisings has changed the powerplayers have changed too."<<

    The only true powerplayer I can see in this list was Senara. However, he was a different type of "powerplayer". He never really went for the "best" combo. He went with what worked for him, and what he could make work. Ask him. If he wanted to powerplay, he wouldn't have rerolled from a Ranger to a Barbarian like he did.

    As far as the rest, two are patriarchs (which cannot truely be counted), and one is an Imm...again...disqualified. As far as Kamille goes, he is far from a powerplayer for the very reason I gave for Senara. He roll a supposed "best" combo. Then again, if you ask him, he will admit that he "fucked up" when rolling Kamille. He meant for Sylvan, but he thought H-Elf had the same magic resist. But he never rerolled, and he stuck with what he did roll up.

    As far as DR turning into a "big chatroom", I agree and disagree. There are still RP/PK happening, although the latter being less. Instead of the old PK's we had, we have brawls...which people havent fulled evolved to where "Brawling" could become.

    The biggest difference between "the good old days" and now, is people now are a bunch of lazy fucking pansies. A bunch of people fall into the mold of..."I dont PK because I dont want to re-equip(even with gathering eq being easy), I dont want to lose my vamp, I dont want to lose my were, I dont have the gold, or I just plain suck and dont want to learn".

    I mean come on...things used to be more difficult. For a good while, it used to be 1 cleanse = loss of were. Now its 3. People tend to forget that cleanses "FADE" after a period of time. Albeit, a long period, but it can still fade.

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  23. >>"People always say, "Oh it's nothing like the old days, I remember X,Y and Z" but no one ever does anything to bring it back to that. "<<

    If thats how you feel as well, do something about it. Play something controversial, cause a war with a guild...(yes 1 player can cause an all out war, ie Calvinar), or dable in your own types of mischief. DR gives a player plenty of flexibilty to play a role a person wants.

    I also think people misinterpret what a "powerplayer" is to meet their own standards. In my opinion, a "powerplayer" is a WoW-Era idiot who tries to min/max(make the ultimate best) combo they possibly can in a sad attempt to "Be the very best". Usually by making some sort of "ultimate" PK Race/class combo, deck out in questies as much as possible, have ungodly ammounts of gold, max any and all tradeskills, and beat anyone and everyone. While doing all of this, they really dont contribute much to DR as far as RP goes, they toss the char away after a few months(usually when bored) to reroll a new combo, and tend to be forgotten about after a year or two.

    -----------------------------------------------
    Anyways, I'm done. Non-dispellable peaches is broken for PK imo. I do like the Ordain effect for peach pies though, although would only be useless for Templars unless the effects stacked.

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  24. If we boil it down to directing players to focus their efforts on more active roleplay, over straight pk benefits taken from looping... How about awarding something like RP points? Designate 'say' and 'emote' channels to return a percentage for each utterance, and once that percentage reaches 100%, the player is issued a point. After a certain number of RP...experience points? They translate to a single practice point...after some time, a person might build up enought practice points to convert to a train...and voila..10 hp/mana.

    This would give a general reward for RP, and imms could issue rp points for content they think is over and above.

    The thing is, there would have to be some way to keep players from spamming stupid crap on the rp channels...these channels could echo into the staff field of vision (if they don't already)...so maybe that's an addition to the original problem, rather than any kind of solution.

    There could be a check to make sure there was another active player (not AFK) in the room to listen to the speaker, and if a player sees a spammer going off, they just leave the room to prevent the speaker from getting any credit so as not to be complicit in the abuse.

    Another element is an auto-AFK flag that hits after a player is idle for a certain number of ticks. The number could be varied, too. Anywhere from 5 ticks to 8 or so, and their flag goes up automatically? This would make an idle 'listener' to the speaker go afk so the speaker couldn't keep talking their ear off to beat the system.

    (This is all probably terrible thoughts, sorry)

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  25. My initial instinct is to use player hours in this somehow. Lets be honest with ourselves. Any char that has over 1000 hours has been seen and presumably interacted with. By this point I guess that random CR that sees him and notices he doesn't bow gets to show him his disfavor doesn't he? We have some pretty neat mechanisms rp in game for dealing with some of these things. Now if a player is running loops unmanned in safe, that is a rule violation I believe.

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  26. I just want to make a quick comment about Patriarchs, Immortals, and the role of staff and players.

    First off, Players make DR. IF you think there isn't enough pk, what are you as a player doing to create more pk? Inferno contracts are pretty cheap. Enemies are rediculously easy to make as well.

    Also I just want to point something out about staff. At the end of the day do you want staff to create rp or facillitate it? I think you will find that if you need a random wizi imm to throw some echoes around you can find them nearly on the spot within reasonable hours. (These people have lives outside of DR folks.)

    I am not going to give away the cow about vampires here, but if you truly believe that our Patriarchs are only on for 15 minutes and then leave.......

    So again, what are we as players doing to create the environment? You want more pk? Make that pester or evil char. Dream big and rp it up. If you stick with it, you will be surprised what you can really get done.

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  27. Re: "Not to single anyone out (a few players say it), but Dark Risings's werecreatures are not "lycans!" Lycans are from Underworld, not DR!"

    Seriously? Lycans stands for lycanthropes which is a term widely used on most RPGs. Also, there are a couple of DR stories that refer to weres as lycanthropes.
    Underworld is really recent and, like DR, took a couple of references from the storytelling world.
    If we're supposed to go this way, complaining about the use of a word that strikes reference to something else, how about changing the name of the current vampire broods as well? Sounds right since Lasombra and Ravnos came from the same storytelling universe and, just like the weres, are reaaaaally different in game.

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  28. Lycanthrope literally means "wolf man" so refering to all DR weres as "Lycans" is pretty silly.

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  29. lycanthropy
    (from Greek lykos, "wolf "; anthropos, "man"), mental disorder in which the patient believes that he is a wolf or some other nonhuman animal. Undoubtedly stimulated by the once widespread superstition that lycanthropy is a supernatural condition in which men actually assume the physical form of werewolves or other animals, the delusion has been most likely to occur among people who believe in reincarnation and the transmigration of souls. Usually, a person is deemed to take the form of the most dangerous beast of prey of the region: the wolf or bear in Europe and northern Asia, the hyena or leopard in Africa, and the tiger in India, China, Japan, and elsewhere in Asia; but other animals are mentioned too.

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  30. This post is about botting and unmanned looping, NOT lycanthropes vs. werecreature terminology.

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  31. Would it be too much asking for the creation of a 'General Discussion' post?
    There is a lot to discuss regarding the game and OOC/MSN is not the same thing as having an actual space for it.

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